New idea: Point system
21 posts by 3 users
02/09, 2010 05:12AM
Fryse
16 posts
Hello.
I was thinking, it is rather boring that winner allways get 100 points, even WHEN beating way better ranked competition.
How bout points to the winner of game is calculated also with his current points and or rank, compared to whom he beat in the game?
For example, a player that have 200 points allready, win a game vs 4 guys having more points, shouldn't the winner then get a litle bonus?
He has just beaten 4 guys with more points than him in the game. Tho the rules of calculating the points have to be calculating in all time of all companies.
Tho exactly how the formula will be im not sure of, but some matemathic genious must be in theese forums.
And ofc set a maxlimit to the score, of feks 300, (or 500? :P) wich is what a "newbie" or lowranked player deserve for beating a "top ranked player".
Just an idea, making it more fun for new users, and lower ranked player to "catch" up, if they dont play 5000 games a year.
I was thinking, it is rather boring that winner allways get 100 points, even WHEN beating way better ranked competition.
How bout points to the winner of game is calculated also with his current points and or rank, compared to whom he beat in the game?
For example, a player that have 200 points allready, win a game vs 4 guys having more points, shouldn't the winner then get a litle bonus?
He has just beaten 4 guys with more points than him in the game. Tho the rules of calculating the points have to be calculating in all time of all companies.
Tho exactly how the formula will be im not sure of, but some matemathic genious must be in theese forums.
And ofc set a maxlimit to the score, of feks 300, (or 500? :P) wich is what a "newbie" or lowranked player deserve for beating a "top ranked player".
Just an idea, making it more fun for new users, and lower ranked player to "catch" up, if they dont play 5000 games a year.
02/09, 2010 05:30AM
Fryse
16 posts
Also, i would suggest that the winner of games with more people than himself, should get more points, than winner in a game he plays alone...
I would think of something so easy as:
((number of players in game-1) *10) + 100 (wich is the points today), wich will give u 10 points extra for each opponent u beat.
6players:
((6-1)*10)+100 = 150points. Then i was thinking of previous suggestion, if player has beaten 2 players higher ranked than him (and played same time) u could either 1:. Give an extra amount of 20 points pr higher ranked player he beats, OR 2:. get some % part of difference in points of the players he beaten compared to own score.. tho this can give some insane score results wich must be capped.
What u think guys?
I would think of something so easy as:
((number of players in game-1) *10) + 100 (wich is the points today), wich will give u 10 points extra for each opponent u beat.
6players:
((6-1)*10)+100 = 150points. Then i was thinking of previous suggestion, if player has beaten 2 players higher ranked than him (and played same time) u could either 1:. Give an extra amount of 20 points pr higher ranked player he beats, OR 2:. get some % part of difference in points of the players he beaten compared to own score.. tho this can give some insane score results wich must be capped.
What u think guys?
02/25, 2010 09:54AM
Ed le fou
161 posts
Hello,
I didn't take the time to respond to the forum's thread lately, sorry about that.
I wanted to replace the scoring system by a quotation system, like chess player's rank or world of warcraft arena.
There is documentation about that : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELO_ranking
But I don't know how to apply these formulas to multiplayer game.
Actually any game worth 100pt, and players earn these points.
Your idea is to add ((number of players in game-1) *10) to the game value.
I think the game value could depends on your opponents actual score.
Game value = 100 + SUM_OF_EACH_PLAYER_SCORE * C
Where C is a constant to balance.
There is still a problem to every of these ideas :
People can play anonymously, i think that most a the player will only login the last minute of the game, when they are sure to win.
And this complexe scoring system will not be used.
Greetings,
ed le fou.
I didn't take the time to respond to the forum's thread lately, sorry about that.
I wanted to replace the scoring system by a quotation system, like chess player's rank or world of warcraft arena.
There is documentation about that : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELO_ranking
But I don't know how to apply these formulas to multiplayer game.
Actually any game worth 100pt, and players earn these points.
Your idea is to add ((number of players in game-1) *10) to the game value.
I think the game value could depends on your opponents actual score.
Game value = 100 + SUM_OF_EACH_PLAYER_SCORE * C
Where C is a constant to balance.
There is still a problem to every of these ideas :
People can play anonymously, i think that most a the player will only login the last minute of the game, when they are sure to win.
And this complexe scoring system will not be used.
Greetings,
ed le fou.
02/27, 2010 03:48PM
JStaxton
162 posts
Hello Ed & Co,
I read a bit through the wiki article and found out the a rating system called "TrueSkill" from Microsoft Research is what we are looking for! you can learn about it here: [url]http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/details.aspx[/url]
and further details here: [url]ftp://ftp.research.microsoft.com/pub/tr/TR-2006-80.pdf[/url]
and here is a blog entry with an example in F#: [url]http://blogs.technet.com/apg/archive/2008/06/16/trueskill-in-f.aspx[/url]
in short: It it suitable for more than 2-player matches, even with teams! It calculates the player skill and the uncertainty for each player.
But there is 1 problem arising in Ottd: When there is only 1 logged player at the end of the round... its just not good relative to another player... hm
Its a bit of statistical work, but I think its worth the effort.
greetings
JStaxton
I read a bit through the wiki article and found out the a rating system called "TrueSkill" from Microsoft Research is what we are looking for! you can learn about it here: [url]http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/details.aspx[/url]
and further details here: [url]ftp://ftp.research.microsoft.com/pub/tr/TR-2006-80.pdf[/url]
and here is a blog entry with an example in F#: [url]http://blogs.technet.com/apg/archive/2008/06/16/trueskill-in-f.aspx[/url]
in short: It it suitable for more than 2-player matches, even with teams! It calculates the player skill and the uncertainty for each player.
But there is 1 problem arising in Ottd: When there is only 1 logged player at the end of the round... its just not good relative to another player... hm
Its a bit of statistical work, but I think its worth the effort.
greetings
JStaxton
02/28, 2010 12:19PM
Ed le fou
161 posts
Well,
That is very interesting, i'm going to study that and see if they give enough info to "clone it my way" in java.
Of course, we do not need the matchmaking part.
There is still the 'I won't loggin until i win' problem to solve : if people don't loggin to save their previous (and better) player statistics this is pointless.
Thanx,
Ed le fou.
That is very interesting, i'm going to study that and see if they give enough info to "clone it my way" in java.
Of course, we do not need the matchmaking part.
There is still the 'I won't loggin until i win' problem to solve : if people don't loggin to save their previous (and better) player statistics this is pointless.
Thanx,
Ed le fou.
02/28, 2010 12:50PM
JStaxton
162 posts
Hello Ed,
We could ad something like: You need to log on the first 10min after starting a company... otherwise you're not allowed to log on with that company.
can this solve the 'I won't loggin until i win' problem?
Edit: The this is, even if everybody logs on, you can reset you own company before the game ends... so its kind of the same like not beeing logged on. Its still a problem...
But there is another problem: What to do, when theres only 1 logged player at the end of the round? The TrueSkill algorithm need players to compare to, because its only purpose is to calculate the playing strength relative to other players... hm
Any ideas to that?
And there is another problem: We need to get the goal% of each player into that formula, not only the place. e.g.: Player1 wins (100%), player2 (90%) and player3 (15%). so players 1&2 are far better (this time) than player3.
JStaxton
We could ad something like: You need to log on the first 10min after starting a company... otherwise you're not allowed to log on with that company.
can this solve the 'I won't loggin until i win' problem?
Edit: The this is, even if everybody logs on, you can reset you own company before the game ends... so its kind of the same like not beeing logged on. Its still a problem...
But there is another problem: What to do, when theres only 1 logged player at the end of the round? The TrueSkill algorithm need players to compare to, because its only purpose is to calculate the playing strength relative to other players... hm
Any ideas to that?
And there is another problem: We need to get the goal% of each player into that formula, not only the place. e.g.: Player1 wins (100%), player2 (90%) and player3 (15%). so players 1&2 are far better (this time) than player3.
JStaxton
03/05, 2010 12:02PM
Ed le fou
161 posts
Hi,
The TrueSkill won't be easy to clone, especially because it's not made to rank multiplayer games with player joinning or leaving at any moment.
After some thinking, here is a (very) simple ranking system : https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvF4MEwjUzgVdFlFMl9Fd0dhMi1UdkRIV3BPS25Oc3c&hl=en
This spreadsheet should be public, tell me if not.
The Rank Calculation is based on the "Rank Before" game, and the "Performance". Note that the (performance collumn * 100) is the actual point system.
If a player plays alone, his rank will not change.
As you can see, anonymous company are constantly ranked @ 500. If this company badly loose, this could be give easy points too every other player, in case of epic win others players will loose some rank.
Or we could truely rank anonymous companies (all will share the same pseudo-account), even if anybody can play them...
Greetings,
Ed le fou.
The TrueSkill won't be easy to clone, especially because it's not made to rank multiplayer games with player joinning or leaving at any moment.
After some thinking, here is a (very) simple ranking system : https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvF4MEwjUzgVdFlFMl9Fd0dhMi1UdkRIV3BPS25Oc3c&hl=en
This spreadsheet should be public, tell me if not.
The Rank Calculation is based on the "Rank Before" game, and the "Performance". Note that the (performance collumn * 100) is the actual point system.
If a player plays alone, his rank will not change.
As you can see, anonymous company are constantly ranked @ 500. If this company badly loose, this could be give easy points too every other player, in case of epic win others players will loose some rank.
Or we could truely rank anonymous companies (all will share the same pseudo-account), even if anybody can play them...
Greetings,
Ed le fou.
03/05, 2010 10:19PM
JStaxton
162 posts
Hello Ed and the others,
puh that was quite a bit work! I looked at the spreadsheet from Ed and formed a new version. Pls take a look and this one:
[url]https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tve2Zl_xY7L5HU0Ec2GQ8JQ[/url]
new inputs: playedGames & PlayerSkillRation to each other.
explanations see inside.
cu later
JStaxton
puh that was quite a bit work! I looked at the spreadsheet from Ed and formed a new version. Pls take a look and this one:
[url]https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tve2Zl_xY7L5HU0Ec2GQ8JQ[/url]
new inputs: playedGames & PlayerSkillRation to each other.
explanations see inside.
cu later
JStaxton
03/06, 2010 08:28PM
Fryse
16 posts
to be hounest, i do not understand theese spreadsheets, but nice to see that you look into a new/improved point system. Good luck :)
03/06, 2010 10:27PM
JStaxton
162 posts
Hello Fryse and others,
in my opinion its very hard to create a fair score system. This said I want to encourage everyone to take part in this and make proposals. These things get complicated quickly (in a mathematical way), but thats the deal.
Ed and me had a long discussion about the posted spreadsheet and we both think now this idea could work. But this system needs more testing. Naturally I would explain the algorithm to everyone that is motivated to put in the work needed to understand it. (@Fryse)
@Fryse: where exactly stops your understanding. sometimes its only one obstacle and you'll get the rest. did you look at the formulas in the cells? And read the Notes?
Generally speaking I'm now aiming at a 2step ranking. normally its the scoring value like today and additionally there will be some kind of skill value. Maybe sorting the ranking one way or the other is a good idea.
Ed now will have to do lots of server work to get the data needed to do more testing. Thanks for the effort Ed!
Edit: I just now had an idea that may solve the "I wont log in, until I win" problem. We multiply the companies score with the ratio logged_company_time / complete_company_time! This way a player logging in only 1min before game ends he'll get almost no points. And players instantly loggin in after company start will get the full points.
Greetings to all ottd addicts
JStaxton
in my opinion its very hard to create a fair score system. This said I want to encourage everyone to take part in this and make proposals. These things get complicated quickly (in a mathematical way), but thats the deal.
Ed and me had a long discussion about the posted spreadsheet and we both think now this idea could work. But this system needs more testing. Naturally I would explain the algorithm to everyone that is motivated to put in the work needed to understand it. (@Fryse)
@Fryse: where exactly stops your understanding. sometimes its only one obstacle and you'll get the rest. did you look at the formulas in the cells? And read the Notes?
Generally speaking I'm now aiming at a 2step ranking. normally its the scoring value like today and additionally there will be some kind of skill value. Maybe sorting the ranking one way or the other is a good idea.
Ed now will have to do lots of server work to get the data needed to do more testing. Thanks for the effort Ed!
Edit: I just now had an idea that may solve the "I wont log in, until I win" problem. We multiply the companies score with the ratio logged_company_time / complete_company_time! This way a player logging in only 1min before game ends he'll get almost no points. And players instantly loggin in after company start will get the full points.
Greetings to all ottd addicts
JStaxton
04/05, 2010 09:13PM
Fryse
16 posts
sorry for late reply, but have been busy with RLstuff.
Havnt been playing the last month, and wont the next either... Tbh i think ill be back next fall. (6months or so).
perhaps earlier, but i doubt.
The question where u asked me where it stopped for me to understand in the spreadsheet i would say all of it.
Neither have i espessially time to read it.. (no, didnt read note).
Good luck hunting for a system that will work perfect. I think it would be great if a low ranked player would get payed richly with points if he beats a highranked player or 2, so that the players that are skillfull might be high, not only the once that have time to play 500 games each month. Hard to stay at top tho. hence u get very litle points, and have to win twice the many games as others to get more points to still have the 1st. spot... or something.. hmm... well well, im off again, was just in to check. Cya later guys :)
Havnt been playing the last month, and wont the next either... Tbh i think ill be back next fall. (6months or so).
perhaps earlier, but i doubt.
The question where u asked me where it stopped for me to understand in the spreadsheet i would say all of it.
Neither have i espessially time to read it.. (no, didnt read note).
Good luck hunting for a system that will work perfect. I think it would be great if a low ranked player would get payed richly with points if he beats a highranked player or 2, so that the players that are skillfull might be high, not only the once that have time to play 500 games each month. Hard to stay at top tho. hence u get very litle points, and have to win twice the many games as others to get more points to still have the 1st. spot... or something.. hmm... well well, im off again, was just in to check. Cya later guys :)
05/05, 2010 07:08PM
JStaxton
162 posts
Hello everyone,
I was sick of waiting on the google spreadsheet to calculate the stats
with all these errors! So I reprogrammed everything in OpenOffice Calc.
The result of all this is in the attached Calc Table. I added 2 charts
(it takes a while until the sense dawns on oneself) and I created extra
Tables for the games and one for the players (ranking when sorted)
I thought i complete history of every player throughout his way on the
server would be nice, but this would invole a huge amount of data... I
was afraid this could be total overkill so I didnt do that so far...
In addition to the charts I thought of some characteristics of the
server to calculate like: average PlayerCount per game or like the chart
for the histogram over all players with their skill (to see the
differences between a gauss curve, the normal skill curve and the
shownskill curve better)
What are your thoughts?
Greetings
JStaxton
I was sick of waiting on the google spreadsheet to calculate the stats
with all these errors! So I reprogrammed everything in OpenOffice Calc.
The result of all this is in the attached Calc Table. I added 2 charts
(it takes a while until the sense dawns on oneself) and I created extra
Tables for the games and one for the players (ranking when sorted)
I thought i complete history of every player throughout his way on the
server would be nice, but this would invole a huge amount of data... I
was afraid this could be total overkill so I didnt do that so far...
In addition to the charts I thought of some characteristics of the
server to calculate like: average PlayerCount per game or like the chart
for the histogram over all players with their skill (to see the
differences between a gauss curve, the normal skill curve and the
shownskill curve better)
What are your thoughts?
Greetings
JStaxton
games_complete.ods: First complete stats review for new SkillSystem from 16/3/2010 to 3/5/2010, 104 downloads.
05/08, 2010 10:28PM
JStaxton
162 posts
Hello everyone!
I updated the OpenOffice Calc spreadsheet with the latest game stats.
And there is a new table: History of a player (you can chose) with 2 charts.
Check it out and tell me what you think of it. Especially what you think of the new skill system.
If you have problems with the spreadsheet, because you have another language setting than mine (german), please tell me...
Cu all and have fun.
If you have any questions, I'll help out if I can.
JStaxton
I updated the OpenOffice Calc spreadsheet with the latest game stats.
And there is a new table: History of a player (you can chose) with 2 charts.
Check it out and tell me what you think of it. Especially what you think of the new skill system.
If you have problems with the spreadsheet, because you have another language setting than mine (german), please tell me...
Cu all and have fun.
If you have any questions, I'll help out if I can.
JStaxton
games_complete_May8th2010.ods: OpenOffice Calc spreadsheet file - all results since Mar16th2010 to May8th2010, 74 downloads.
05/12, 2010 02:45PM
Ed le fou
161 posts
Hi everybody,
How do you run the macro on OpenOffice ?
Ed le fou.
How do you run the macro on OpenOffice ?
Ed le fou.
05/12, 2010 05:30PM
JStaxton
162 posts
Hi everyone,
@ Ed: you mean how you can run the Macro I implemented in the file? Just click the buttons I placed on the tables or use the Macro menu. With my german lang setup its Menu->Extras->Makros -> ...
With Alt+F11 you can see an overview of all makros/functions/scripts.
JStaxton
@ Ed: you mean how you can run the Macro I implemented in the file? Just click the buttons I placed on the tables or use the Macro menu. With my german lang setup its Menu->Extras->Makros -> ...
With Alt+F11 you can see an overview of all makros/functions/scripts.
JStaxton